The nature of a perfectionist fraught with contradictions
TK, who has become an indispensable presence as the frontman of Ling tosite Sigure, delivers an emotional guitar sound that pierces the listener's heart and is completely unique and unparalleled. Despite not having roots in Western music, his benchmark since he started playing the guitar has always been SUGIZO. With a relationship spanning over a decade, the two constantly inspire each other, making their conversations highly insightful. TK speaks logically and occasionally interjects sharp remarks, to which SUGIZO responds with delight. It seems they both recognize that they share many similarities.
Sigure has always had a unique sound from the beginning.
The first time I heard TK’s guitar, I was shocked. (SUGIZO)
● TK-san talked passionately about the influence from SUGIZO-san in an interview with Guitar Magazine (May 2013 issue), when did you start listening?
TK:
Originally, I didn’t go through Western music, I was just listening to JPOP. When I was in high school, I saw LUNA SEA on “Music Station” or something. It was vivid for me at the time, but there was a great sense of discomfort. Since I hadn’t been exposed to rock much, I watched them thinking, “Who are these people?” and the discomfort gradually became addictive and entered my body. From there, when I heard songs like “TRUE BLUE” and “ROSIER,” my ears started to go to the guitar and LUNA SEA made me want to try playing an instrument. I liked Japanese music and listened to guitar, SUGIZO-san was a guitar hero among them. I tried to imitate him in various ways, but I couldn’t get close enough (laughs). But that feeling was really good. At that time, I basically only listened to songs.
I used to listen to songs as melodies, but the first time I felt melody in a guitar was with SUGIZO-san. Rather than fast playing or technical guitar, it was the first time that a guitar touched my heartstrings as a melody, so my guitar started from there. That feeling is still continuing. SUGIZO-san’s guitar is always evolving and the unreachable charm that has always been at its core hasn’t changed since the first time I heard it.
SUGIZO:
I first saw Sigure quite a while ago.
The first live performance I saw was already shocking. I was really curious what kind of music he had been listening to. When we started interacting, I asked him who he was influenced by and he said LUNA SEA and I was surprised. What I felt in Sigure’s music was a tingling sensation, sharpened and sharpened until it seemed about to break. I felt a commonality in that area. But more than musical things, I felt like we were close in terms of sensation.
● Where did you first learn about Sigure?
SUGIZO:
At first, a friend introduced to me.
It’s TAKUTO-kun, the guitarist of a wonderful instrumental band called about tess. He used to be in a band called “KURU KURU” and often played against bands that were released from the label I was running at the time.
That’s why in the late 90s, I was wandering around the live house scene in Tokyo. There, many friends were made and one of the boss characters among them was TAKUTO-kun.
TK:
When Sigure formed and brought our demo tape for the first time, it was at a live house called chop in Ikebukuro. At that time, KURU KURU happened to be doing a live performance. They were a cool band so we exchanged CDs and played against each other later on and even connected us with SUGIZO-san. There is still greenery there. Now our (Pierre) Nakano-kun is doing a band called Chaotic Speed King.
SUGIZO:
It’s what you call an underground connection. Because guys like me are often hanging out in such places.
There aren’t many people like me around.
● There aren’t many people who show up at live houses while doing dome-class live performances (laughs).
TK:
That’s right. That’s what’s amazing about SUGIZO-san. Whether it’s appetite or naturalness, I don’t know, but he always has an antenna for new things and is very impressed by it. He really comes to play at live shows or shows up at friends’ bands’ live shows.
SUGIZO:
Just as a music fan, love music so much that can’t live without it. It doesn’t matter if it’s a big senior or junior. I’ve been greatly influenced by seniors who are 20 years older than me and stimulated by those who are 20 years younger than me. Whether it’s today’s latest music or music from 200 years ago, it moves me. Genre doesn’t matter either country or generation.
Japanese’s as well as European’s as well as African’s. In that sense, there are no barriers within myself and going to live houses often is just because there is music that I want to listen to. As a byproduct of that, various friends are made along the way. There are actually many great artists in the underground world. Now, I think the Japanese rock band scene is very powerful. There are so many talented people jostling for position that it makes me think there has never been such an exciting time before. So there is always interest there. That was also true when we first met Sigure about 10 years ago.
● Sigure has grown significantly over the past 10 years.
TK:
At that time we were just starting out and were finally able to do one-man shows at live houses.
SUGIZO: Sigure hasn’t changed much since then in a good way.
TK:
I feel that way about LUNA SEA too.
SUGIZO:
Sigure doesn’t get old even if they do old songs.
TK:
That’s right. For better or worse, maybe we weren’t looking for something new or maybe we were looking for something unreachable even if it wasn’t new and at that time we were just chasing dots but we weren’t trying to do music that didn’t exist anywhere or anything like that so now our songs feel new or don’t get old.
If we were thinking about doing something different when writing songs then if we listened now it would feel old inside us but since we can produce sound before we become conscious of it maybe it still sounds fresh when we listen now
SUGIZO:
That’s great. You’re detached from the beginning.
TK:
I don’t sure what it is (laughs).
SUGIZO:
Sigure’s music didn’t exist anywhere else from the beginning.
When I first heard TK-kun’s guitar, I really felt shocked. There is such a young person who can play such piercing guitar! He was still in his early 20s! For the first time ever seen someone who plays such fast speed guitar!
TK:
I’m glad! Do SUGIZO-san values speed when playing guitar? There is an impression that the speed of attack is fast or rather the speed from when the string hits the pick until it comes out is fast and there is charm there too. And I want to be like that too.
SUGIZO:
I hadn’t really thought about it before. It just naturally became like this. Picking is like a whip. So naturally seeking elasticity became like this and before you knew it maybe your speed was fast.
TK:
I don’t think you’re conscious of it but maybe you’re choosing equipment with fast speed. Previously borrowed Divided (BY 13) and its touch speed was incredibly fast.
SUGIZO:
Matchless was also really fast. It was the main one for a while in the 1990s.
TK:
What did you have back then (laughs)?
SUGIZO:
It was 25Ux3 (laughs).
TK:
Even if you run cables through all those systems with only that much speed flying sound should not normally be possible. So it must have been quite amazing.
SUGIZO:
Nowadays try to keep it as simple as possible but even then main system still has about 15U. But direct sound goes through direct liner.
TK:
Has your consciousness towards sound changed quite a bit?
SUGIZO:
Actually now compromising. In the past if couldn’t compromise then backing clean solo all used different amps. So system got big. But also lost many things because of that.
Now rather compromise use one amp for distortion clean solo too. Wanted to make compact. Then each amp’s commitment will be somewhat impaired but set will become simple so sound will become direct powerful.
TK:
Before at Liquid Room our Nakano-kun had planned something but at that time Chaotic Speed King came as guest with SUGIZO-san and I watched from side stage, at that time multi-effector right?
SUGIZO:
At that time only GT-10
TK:
GT-10. SUGIZO-san who had what+rack (何＋ラック??) x3 (laughs) But properly became SUGIZO-san sound so very impressed. It might seem obvious, but seeing firsthand that this is what the professional do up close was incredible.
The fact that you can create that with the equipment right there and a little multi-effects unit brought along — I think it could give guitar kids dreams.
SUGIZO:
Been training for last 10 years. In late 90s only did big places so couldn’t easily shrink set back then but recently did full system with big places also set up multi-effector yourself go around world also did tech sometimes not sometimes experienced all kinds situations so now can make best choice according TPO each.
TK:
Experience in overseas big right?
SUGIZO:
Big yeah! When have no time have make sound or suddenly delay one not ring etcetera how deal ability.
TK:
Once, I went on a UK tour with Sigure, but the experience was completely different from Japan, you know? We had properly arranged for Twin Riverb P from the rental company, but what arrived were Beringer and Marshall (laughs). I thought it was impossible, but over there, it was considered normal. The other bands didn't have their own instruments, so they would ask, "Can you lend me your amp?" or something like that. In that kind of situation, your perspective on instruments changes. I realized that regardless of the completely different situations every day, it's important to be able to produce sound with your own hands.
SUGIZO:
In the end, what matters most is what you have at your disposal. If you can produce your own sound here, then it doesn't matter what the situation is. I've gone through quite a lot of rough experiences like training as a warrior, so I've become stronger unconsciously.
TK:
When you have a tech and the venues get bigger, you start losing that immunity, right?
SUGIZO:
You forget what you were doing while huffing and puffing. In the case of JUNO REACTOR, all the members are from different countries, and the common language is English. There are people who don't communicate well in English, but when you come together in that situation, you become tough. Conversely, when you can bring your own equipment or when you have a tech, it becomes a luxury (laughs).
TK:
At that time, were you using multi-effects units at your feet?
SUGIZO:
In the case of JUNO, for the first Europe tour, I packed two compact units on two boards. Even though it was two boards, I had to set them up myself every time, so there was always anxiety. Then I started using the GT-10, and it became really useful. JUNO relied heavily on the GT-10. I prepared one for Japan and one for overseas, and I just copied the programs. I used it strictly as an effects unit, and any amp distortion would do. Generally, I was given either Rectifiers or Hughes & Kettner.
TK:
How was it when X JAPAN performed overseas?
SUGIZO:
Actually, the first North American tour was done with the GT.10 (laughs). I thought it was already at its limit, but I got lucky during X JAPAN's American tour when I met the creator of EVH. They said they really wanted to collaborate and I became an endorser for EVH. The quality of the amps significantly improved. After that, we modified the main system for Japan so it could be downsized. We didn't need to bring a big rack; just a 4U rack and a board would be enough. Then, during the European tour, I really wanted to get the core sound and tried mixing in some crunch for the first time at a rehearsal studio in London. For that, I needed two cabinets and two heads. It gave a very sharp metal sound, but adding the crunch made it really great. Since then, I always use two cabinets for X JAPAN.
TK:
So, you always play in parallel and leave the fader adjustment to the PA?
SUGIZO:
Basically, I keep it fifty-fifty. The delay only applies to the main distortion, while the crunch remains dry. Performing overseas toughened us up quite a bit and improved our adaptability.
I’m often called a perfectionist, but I think that term itself is strange. (TK)
TK:
I remember reading in an interview that during recording, you would record with an AVALON, then reamp it, mixing in some crunch to the distorted sound to give it a solid core. It's the same principle, right? I found it interesting that even though you're a guitarist, you have elements of an engineer too.
SUGIZO:
In that area, you're more of a pro, TK. What made you decide to learn engineering in the first place? Did playing guitar and recording start simultaneously for you?
TK:
I wasn't consciously thinking about engineering, but when I made songs and played guitar, there was no barrier to recording my own sound—it just seemed natural. I've always done it on my own, and somehow it led to where I am now.
SUGIZO:
I really admire that approach. One of my biggest influences, Frank Zappa, was like that. But in the past, for me, playing and recording were completely different realms.
TK:
I think musicians have a different perspective on the sound they record compared to engineers. Nowadays, equipment has become cheaper, and anyone can record. It connects the pure parts of creating and the sound we're aiming for. However, even though everyone has their desired sound, they often don't know how to communicate that to engineers, leading to frustration during the CD-making process. Many people I know were dissatisfied even after mastering. I never understood why that happened because I recorded on my own.
SUGIZO:
That's amazing. I still have never been fully satisfied.
TK:
Engineers have learned many things in the past and know what's okay and what's not, so sometimes their experience can get in the way. If the sound we're aiming for doesn't fit their criteria, it gets rejected. For example, they might say not to put compression here or not to set a release that way at this timing, which was frustrating, so I often thought it might be better to do it myself.
● TK, you've been recording at home since you were aware of music, and you became proficient with recording software without much trouble. On the other hand, SUGIZO had to make a concerted effort to master Pro Tools. That difference is striking (laughs).
SUGIZO:
I worked really hard to master it (laughs). I had to shift my entire focus.
● TK, you probably never had to think about that.
TK:
No, I haven't (laughs). I think making a song includes everything from the dotted delay tone to the mix, so maybe that's where our perspectives differ.
SUGIZO:
That's wonderful. Making music is really about that. For example, just creating a melody and chords doesn't constitute "composition." You can say you've created a fragment of a song. In Japanese pop, creating a melody and chords is often considered composition, but in the classical world, composition includes controlling every note until the last one in the score and conducting the performance. In reality, creating a song includes everything from the effects and tone color to the recording, which I believe is what composition truly is. I feel like your generation, where recording has become a given, is returning to what creating music should inherently be.
● So, you think this should be the norm?
SUGIZO:
I believe so. The tone color appears simultaneously. At least for me, the tone and arrangement come together. The sense of wanting to change the tone here or add delay there is equivalent to wanting woodwinds here, flutes there, and tubas there in an orchestra. If you can't construct that, you're not a complete composer. In that sense, what we're doing now is very legitimate and important in terms of music production. You shouldn't call it composition if it's just a melody and full chords.
TK:
The tone and arrangement naturally appear together. Some people might not be able to arrange, and entrusting it to someone else can sometimes make it better. But for us, bringing out the sound we envision, arranging it, and recording it to the last fraction of a second, all contribute to creating a single song. Sometimes seeing too much can be overwhelming (laughs). I don't have a sense of dividing the work.
SUGIZO:
Listening to that, I understand why you do solo projects. With Ling Tosite Sigure, the format is fixed. You needed to do things outside that format; otherwise, the music wouldn't be complete for you.
TK:
In the end, it's about passing the sound in my head through a very small needle's eye. The process of choosing only the best sweet spots and turning them into the sound of three people is quite tough. Naturally, there's frustration in shaping it into the form of three people, and solo work is about removing those constraints.
SUGIZO:
Both approaches are great. Sometimes, having those constraints allows for interesting things to happen. Even though different sounds are playing in my head, the interesting guitar sounds emerge from situations where there are no other options but to use the guitar. LUNA SEA was like that too. When I create songs, it's with the premise of working with five people. For solo work, there are no constraints, and imagination is limitless. I feel that in your solo work as well.
● It's a bit cliché to say, but you both share a common trait of being perfectionists. Your level of dedication is extraordinary.
TK:
Perfectionists (laughs) People often say that about me, but I find the term itself strange. There's no point in intentionally aiming for something that's not perfect.
SUGIZO:
On the contrary, I think it's a sad trait for us. Despite putting so much effort into making music, I've never felt happy about it (laughs). I've never been satisfied with the music I've created. If we were to use the term "perfectionist," it might refer to someone who is so stoic that they can't take it easy or think "this is good enough."
● If a moment comes when you think "this is good enough," what would you do, SUGIZO?
SUGIZO:
I'd like to feel that, just once.
TK:
I feel the same way.
SUGIZO:
I'd love to think, "This is the best in the world!" I've never felt that way about a live performance either, never thought it was the best.
TK:
It's the same for me. I often see reviews saying it was the best album or the best live performance, but true perfection is rare. Still, I'd like to feel that way just once.
SUGIZO:
I'd like to feel that too. That's why I always strongly believe that my best work is my next work, and my best live performance is the next one. It's kind of sad (laughs).
TK:
It's not sad at all! That's why we can keep evolving (laughs).
● Both of you have a strong passion for artwork. Could you tell us more about that?
SUGIZO:
For example, with classic albums, whether it's Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin, the artwork stays in our memory and becomes a treasure. David Bowie's "Aladdin Sane" isn't "Aladdin Sane" without that cover. The same goes for "The Dark Side of the Moon." For me, music and visuals are synonymous. Probably for TK as well, when music is born, you already see colors and landscapes, right? Music without visual images doesn’t exist for me. That’s what artwork is, as well as stage visuals and lighting; it's all part of the package.
TK:
No matter how much visual imagery or color we see in our minds, we can't convey that visually. Sound vibrates in the air. So, the album cover is the only visible thing that can be associated with our music, which makes it as important as the music itself. We often make requests about the lighting colors too.
SUGIZO:
Because color and music are created simultaneously.
● Does TK direct the album covers for Ling Tosite Sigure?
TK:
Yes. SUGIZO might feel the same, but I often have things redone multiple times. Conversely, when it fits perfectly, it's approved in one go. It's about sharing that vision properly.
SUGIZO:
During the "A WILL" project, the creator collapsed from exhaustion. It was tough (laughs).
TK:
Is the artwork entirely left to SUGIZO within the band?
SUGIZO:
Of course, everyone checks it at the end. I usually create a rough draft first.
TK:
Does anyone object to your vision?
SUGIZO:
I create the rough draft, and then J and INORAN customize it. Shinya barely looks at it until it's done (laughs). RYUICHI’s involvement varies—sometimes he provides the initial image, and other times he leaves it entirely to us.
TK:
Bands have an interesting balance. I handle both the sound and the art for our band, and while the others aren't meticulous, it's not because they're careless. They trust me. This trust creates a balance. If a band's balance is even slightly off, creating things can be very challenging.
SUGIZO:
LUNA SEA is difficult because of that (laughs).
Before my life ends, I really want to create a truly satisfying work and perform a perfect live show. (SUGIZO)
● LUNA SEA has resumed activities. TK, do you feel anything has changed compared to the past?
TK:
You re-recorded your first album, didn't you? Do you prefer changing things you've recorded in the past?
SUGIZO:
I constantly want to change things. I even want to do remixes someday.
TK:
That's quite novel to me. I'm more inclined not to change things.
SUGIZO:
I always want to customize. Frank Zappa was like that. He constantly added to his old works, and every time they were re-released on CD, the mixes were different, and new sounds were added. It might be considered sacrilege towards the original works, but the creator's spirit just can't stop flowing.
TK:
When you listen to the re-recorded versions compared to the originals, you can clearly hear the evolution and the intentions in the sound. For me, re-recording is a scary idea because I doubt if I can surpass what was created in a burst of inspiration back then. It feels like time is flowing backwards. I can't forget the impulsive feeling of creating our first album, and that’s where I start from, trying to surpass it.
SUGIZO:
I'm always dissatisfied. I'd erase our first and second albums if I could (laughs). I always think the next one will be the best. I love revisiting past works, which I often do with solo projects, because it allows me to transcend time. It’s a fusion of my past and present selves creating a harmonious relationship.
TK:
Were there any objections from the members when you decided to re-record?
SUGIZO:
There weren’t any at that time. The re-recording of our first album was our first recording as LUNA SEA in ten years, so it was more like a rehab for us. It was a perfect start, leading to our 22-minute single "THE ONE" and then the album. I think the journey was correct.
TK:
When it comes to recording and mixing, the choice of studio matters, but you didn't change the engineers, right? The sound has changed significantly despite that, which surprised me.
SUGIZO:
That's because the sound we produce as a band has evolved tremendously over the past ten years.
TK:
Even though it was already significant ten years ago, it has evolved further. I aspire to achieve that kind of progress.
SUGIZO:
What I admire about you, TK, is the sense of infinite potential. You and I are both perfectionists. In striving to create perfect things, we never quite reach that point. What we share is the tendency to build something perfect and then try to break it on stage. We create meticulously and then, at the last moment, destroy it to go beyond, probably unconsciously. That leads us further and further, expanding our possibilities infinitely.
TK:
While striving for perfection, there's also a deep fascination with the imperfect. Even though we might reach our ideal form, there's always this suspicion that it might not be the case. It's a continuous cycle of creating and destroying.
● Do you destroy your works because you don't want to reach a state of completion?
TK:
It’s more like I start to doubt if it's truly completed. It's like being a perfectionist with contradictions, something like that.
SUGIZO:
We seem like perfectionists, but in reality, the form might not matter. The important thing might be that we pushed ourselves to the limit, regardless of the form we intended to create in the end.
● So, that's why you destroy them?
SUGIZO:
Yes, exactly. When something I cherish get even a little damaged, I want to destroy it entirely (laughs).
TK:
It's like a pottery artist (laughs).
SUGIZO:
That aspect shows on stage. At some point, I just snap, but I accept that as part of my expression and art. If I didn't, I wouldn’t tolerate deviating from the intended form.
TK:
That frustration can sometimes become an explosive force, especially in live performances. There are moments when I snap at myself, making the whole live show seem distorted. But the explosive energy during those moments creates a live performance that cannot be achieved with a perfectly neat form.
SUGIZO:
Absolutely.
TK:
But it's not something I initially wanted.
SUGIZO:
Exactly. You have to pursue perfection. It's lukewarm to settle for something flawed from the start. There's no lukewarmness in the Sigure live performances and I think mine aren’t either. It might seem like madness to ordinary people. But I think there's an inspiration that you can only feel when you push to that edge. I want to feel that thrill. Even if it doesn't turn out to be the desired form in the end, there's an unknown power that goes beyond that. It's not something you can create through calculation. I don't think a live show should just be rough and feel good. We push the quality of our live performances to the limit, but no matter how much we push, it never becomes perfect.
TK:
It never does (laughs).
● You two are very similar, aren't you (laughs)?
SUGIZO:
Maybe we have something in common, which makes it interesting.
● Finally, SUGIZO, do you have any words for TK?
SUGIZO:
You’re already fully formed as you are now. If you continue to evolve like this, you'll become an amazing musician. It’s a tough life, but I like the way you push yourself to the edge, and I hope you keep being a rock and roller. At the same time, you're a sublime artist. It makes me happy and stimulates me to know someone like you, a generation younger, is there. Keep pushing forward as you are.
TK:
When I look at you, SUGIZO, I see that while it might be painful, you still enjoy pushing yourself to your limits. The parts I once felt I couldn’t reach have become even more distant and I aspire to be like that.
SUGIZO:
Everyone is pushing themselves to the limit, so just like the age difference doesn’t change, nothing else changes either. I feel the same way about my seniors. But actually, I enjoy it. It’s not an easy life, but it’s not unhappy. In a way, I might be enlightened. I think it’s fine if I die now; I have no regrets. That’s why I’m fully devoted to what I create moment by moment.
TK:
I think having no regrets is because of how we work. Even if I were to die now, I have the pride that I’ve done what I should have done up to today, but because of that, I constantly suffer and find nothing else can make me tremble.
SUGIZO:
Saying I have no regrets was a lie (laughs). Ideally, before my life ends, I want to create a truly satisfying work and perform a perfect live show that would make me feel content even at the end of my life. That's my dream.
TK:
For us, achieving such things might become an end, which is scary. I wonder how we’d feel if we achieved the highest form?
SUGIZO:
I think it’ll be fine. When you reach it, you’ll see the next goal.
(photo from SUGIZO HALF CENTURY ANNIVERSARY FES. 2019.07.08)
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Thank you for reading till the end!
This interview is from
SUGIZO (GUITAR MAGAZINE SPECIAL ARTIST SERIES)
March 13, 2015
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